The Horrific Abuses of the War on Terror, and Why The American Christian Church Doesn’t Care
Stress positions and humiliation at Abu Ghraib. This is just the PG-rated stuff.
“Let’s talk about waterboarding” former President George W. Bush said with an almost defiant shrug. There was Bush, sitting across from Matt Lauer in a recent interview, now bragging about his role in personally authorizing the waterboarding of key terrorist suspects- which we know occurred up to 183 times per person. “Because the lawyers said it was legal” and ‘keeping the nation safe’ were his favorite justifications, and what thuggish justifications they were to any person with even the most miniscule understanding of justice. And when the glib mockery of the rule of law was finished, and Bush had used every canard he could think of, Matt Lauer still had the look of surrender plastered all over his face, as if to say “I hope my questions didn’t offend you, sir.” Not that it matters all that much; the church, much like the rest of the nation, wasn’t really paying attention.
It doesn’t appear to matter that the evidence to investigate Bush and key members of his senior team for war crimes is substantial and overwhelming. No, George W. Bush gets standing ovations these days instead, like when he appeared on Leno the other night. It doesn’t seem to register that we can no longer expect other nations to take us seriously when we urge them to end, or prosecute their own crimes against humanity because we are not willing to do that at home. I guess it’s trivial that our troops and citizens may no longer be treated humanely upon capture elsewhere because we very publicly do not treat prisoners from elsewhere humanely, from Abu Ghraib to Guantanamo to Bagram. And the church cares about none of this.
After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current [Bush] administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account. -U.S. Major General Antonio Tagabu, who led the investigation into torture at Abu Ghraib.
The abuse doesn’t stop at waterboarding. Not that the church really cares.
The worst horrors of our war have yet to be revealed—but they will be. Secret prisons, renditions, homicides [while in U.S. custody], torture, and innocents swept up in a vast network of detention—all will be revealed. It is the nature of our openness that it be so. We must start now to recognize our crimes and our complicity. We are all guilty, and we must all take action in whatever way we can. Torture and abuse are not American. They are foreign to us and always should be. We need to exorcise them from our souls and make amends. -Colonel Lawrence B. Wilkerson, U.S. Army (Ret.); former chief of staff to Colin Powell from 2002 to 2005.
These things used to be reserved for the countries that played the villain in our movies.
I thought the church was supposed to be at the forefront of humanitarian and justice issues as an extension of Jesus’ thirst for compassion? Just as long as the issues are politically neutral or occur in distant lands. The church was quick to act against the devastation in Haiti, but when this country’s government commits numerous fundamental abuses and violates basic human rights and the rule of law, the church won’t even speak clearly, much less act to bring those responsible to account. The church just doesn’t care.
Here’s why it doesn’t matter to the church like it should: because things like waterboarding have been politicized, and the debate invented and framed by those seeking to use it for their own gain. Once moral things become political things, the morality suddenly vanishes. I had hoped the church would know better, but the right-wing end of the church is often distracted and belligerent from fighting the wrong battles, and blinded by loyalty to a political philosophy. The progressive end of the church buys into the nonsense that there are two legitimate sides to every policy, and that politics is merely a preference to be discussed around the water cooler. So the progressive wing of church plays the role of the lovable idiot, while the right-wing of the church is justifiably dismissed like an out-of-touch cranky uncle.
(post continues below photo)
The Khmer Rouge also applied torture techniques such as waterboarding.
As a whole, the church just moves too slowly. We are so nervous to be perceived as extreme about the wrong things that we often fail to arrive when strength and moral leadership are needed most. How disappointing we must be to those marginalized and abused in this case. You know, Muslims. The people who church goers are so often suspicious of, so willing to root for them to be profiled and surveilled within our borders, and when captured inside or outside of this country, we accept when they are beneath the value of a lawful and humane process. All of this- the profiling, the surveillance of Mosques, the religious intimidation related to the Ground Zero Community Center, the torture, the murders while in US custody, the assassination programs, the indefinite detention without trial, and our growing indifference to endless military meddling in the Muslim world- these issues are the young generation’s Japanese Internment Camps. This is our slavery. This stuff started on our watch. A little extreme, you say? Consider some war statistics from Bush’s war of choice, which Colonel Wilkerson (from his own administration) says was sold to the public with manipulated intel gathered in part by torture. I hope you won’t mind if I bold these for emphasis:
4,430 U.S. Troops killed
31,920 U.S. Troops wounded
9,765 Iraqi Police and Soldiers Killed
98,000- 108,000 Iraqi civilian deaths from violence
Over 2,000,000 Iraqis displaced (driven by necessity into neighboring countries)
I guess if someone were to be successful at seducing half the population to believe that unnecessary slaughter isn’t wrong, then the church should just bow down to the new polling numbers and stay quiet? That’s the trend. The abuses of the War on Terror may or may not be the most important issue facing the church, and it’s certainly not the only issue, but it’s a crucial one. History will not erase what’s being done on behalf of our country; history will only augment it. And people will wonder “where was the American Christian church, and who really IS their God?”
Meanwhile, the church continues to brag about its place in the civil rights movement, while failing to start a movement that should be our response to the injustices done in the name of the War on Terror. After all, we’re pretty busy. We’ve got theology to contemplate, self-improvement to share, new church campuses to build, pot lucks to attend, books and speaking events to promote, dreams of Jesus skipping with us in a meadow full of daisies, and Calvinism to argue over. Just read the blogs and listen to the sermons. Tiffany and I talk about some of these things too, because they have value, but it all becomes a bit disgusting when it takes up nearly all of the church’s bandwidth.
We’re enjoying our days in Wonderland. We may find the hangover less entertaining. -Blogger ‘Fabius Maximus’
I pray that the American church will wake up: from its right-wing allegiance and recitation of corrupt talking points, and from its progressive moral cowardice. Then we can come together to share radical love and seek justice for some of this generation’s forgotten ”least of these.”
ps- The conservative mayor of London has written a piece warning George W. Bush not to visit England on his book tour because he could face arrest as a war criminal. Read it here and here. And the church doesn’t care, but if the very same things were done by the leader of another country, you know the church would be preaching against it and crying out for justice in Jesus’ name. Nationalism is such a comforting idol.
Saturday, November 20, 2010 at 6:06 pm
I know that my contribution will not meet with your approval but I have to speak up.
Waterboarding does no permanent damage to the individual, it only scares them. What was done to our country was horrific. We needed to get intelligence to prevent if from happening again. As a Christian, I have no problem with Mr Bush ordering the waterboarding. What our enemies do to our soldiers is horrific, beheading them, dragging through their villages dead or alive.
Bullies can only be dealt with in one way, you have to stand up to them and punch them in the face, this is all that they understand. They don’t deal with reason, we are laughed at because Obama apologized for our country around the world. Our enemies laugh at him and consider him and our country weak.
Jimmy Carter was weak as well. You are probably too young to remember that Iran kept over 30o of our guys hostage for 3 years and when Reagan took over they knew that he would order massive military strikes on them and they released the hostages that Reagan was sworn in. Our enemies only respond to force.
Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 4:50 pm
Bullies can only be dealt with in one way, you have to stand up to them and punch them in the face, this is all that they understand.
And what bigger bully is there than the United States of America and its warrior apologists? You, Sir Wilder, can stand in line for your very own punch in the face.
Wednesday, November 24, 2010 at 6:04 am
I was punched in the face repeatedly by my father who was a sadistic son of a bitch who enjoyed inflicting pain on me and my brothers.
As a result I was constantly afraid and the school bulllies picked on me unmercifully. I finally had enough at age 14 and starting fighting back beating the shit out of the bullies, 3 in a row until they got the message that I was no longer a viable target for their abuse. I told my old man the same thing and that I would kill him if he beat on me and my brothers any more. That ended the abuse.
I later went into the military and learned hand to hand combat and the ability to kill people with my bare hands. As a result of that self confidence, I have stood down a lot of bullies with a look in my eye and the utterance that they were welcome to take the first punch so that I could legitimately say that it was self defense. Bullies and terrorists are alike, in that they are inwardly cowards who pick on the weak and defenseless. They only understand one thing. And oh by the way, as to the comment about waterboarding Jesus, he was not trying to kill people.
The people on the planes cooperated with the terrorists and met their death except over the midwest where the men fought back and saved countless lives because the terrorists nosedived the plane into the ground.
I stand by my statements
John Wilder
Wednesday, November 24, 2010 at 10:13 am
Hi John- I can’t begin to grasp what you’ve been through. I’m sorry that you were ever subjected to violence by your own father. You are valuable, and are worth far more than such disgusting treatment.
Thursday, November 25, 2010 at 6:16 am
I agree fully with Ian on this point as well, John. No one should be subject to that type of abuse.
My father also abused me as a child (not to that extent), and I notice patterns in my own behavior towards my own lovely daughter and wife that I want sooo badly out of my life.
But this is why the issues of war, torture, and Christian apologies for the rampant abuse of such issues strikes such a chord with me. We teach abuse, anger, frustration by continuing these actions. That’s ALL we teach.
I also believe we need to stand up to bullies – but not by more bullying. But by teachable actions.
And yes, the United States is the preeminent bully on the world’s stage right now. Terrorists are loosely organized reactions in the Third World to what many of their citizens perceive as economic and militaristic bullying. Only a few have risen up to perform acts of terror. But more continue to do so as we continue to use torture and assassinations as means of counter-striking.
It’s all foolishness and it only continues the cycle of violence.
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 10:59 pm
John- I honestly appreciate that you continue to participate in the blog and that you feel comfortable enough to share your views and to challenge. I hope that in doing so, you are still available for reflection when your views are challenged in return.
Tuesday, November 1, 2011 at 3:16 am
I cannot believe you think this is okay to do somebody because it “does not permanent damage to the individuals. It only scares them”.
I do not believe that “justified torture” falls under any Christian principals I was ever taught.
Now I understand why my cousin who has dual Canadian/U.S. citizenship uses her Canadian passport when she travels abroad.
Saturday, November 20, 2010 at 6:08 pm
Oh by the way, every time I fly, there is always an undercurrent of men who are prepared to kill any terrorists who want to take over the plane. Never again will men sit by and let terrorists kill us again. The terrorists would rather be waterboarded than beaten to death by an angry group of men.
John Wilder
Sunday, November 21, 2010 at 10:29 am
So wrong in so many ways.
First of all, there is now credible evidence that William Casey (along with some CIA members) secretly met with Iranian officials in Europe to arrange for the hostages’ release, but not until after the election. The simplistic statement that ‘Carter was weak’ is too facile a statement to align with reality — it aligns with the right’s point of view, but its not a completely factual statement. (And I am not too young to remember it, either. Saying that is not too slightly condescending to Ian, as well. History is often more accurate than the propaganda you got at the actual time, and his age doesn’t keep him from reading historical accounts of it.)
Also, your statement that waterboarding ‘only scares them’ demonstrates exactly the point of Ian’s piece. Pretending its not ‘real torture’ allows you to dismiss culpability here; changing language and diluting the meaning is flatly pathetic. Its a rationale that I am sure you won’t accept when our enemies try it — and other non-lethal tortures – on our men in the field.
Whether it is torture or not is no longer an argument; the world community as well as our government admit that. We all know it is, no matter how you try to change the definition after the fact. Shame on you; it’s disgusting. Without admitting that fact, you really can’t be taken seriously in this discussion.
And, exactly who around the world is ‘laughing’ at us for Obama ‘apologizing for our country’? I see NO evidence other than Fox News and others of that ilk claiming it to be so. Fake claims of outrage is not evidence, its political theater.
Sunday, November 21, 2010 at 9:16 am
Linked to this article on my “Free Methodist Peace Maker” blog.
At what point will the church actually understand “taking up the cross?” Jesus was assaulted by all kinds of bullies. What did he say? “Turn the other cheek.” What a weakling.
We need a savior who’s going to show us how to really stick it to the other guys. You know. Create such unjust and horrific living circumstances for families that they will never again dare attack a Christian country again. That will teach them.
Meanwhile, if things proceed toward Armaggedon, we’ve got the rapture to save from any discomfort.
Ya know?
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 11:10 pm
I’m just going to say “exactly” every time you post a comment, Rick. Exactly.
Monday, November 22, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Hey Brian
You are a true believer and I am not going to try and convince you Bullies and terrorists only understand one thing. I would rather see some guys scared into giving us life saviing intelligence or would you rather have them continuing to kill innocent people?
John Wilder
Monday, November 22, 2010 at 7:21 pm
John, tell me what actionable intelligence the torture got us and you may have a leg to stand on. Trust me, if we DID get any, the Bushies would be screaming about example after example on Fox, CNN and any other outlet willing to broadcast it. But for now its cricket chirps…
This is part of the problem is that people only accept the unsupported rhetoric of the past administration instead of looking at the results and facts. Your belief that we get ‘life saving intelligence’ is a faulty belief that’s not supported by reality, but only emotion. I understand how it feels good to have the ‘bad guys’ tortured and beaten. (By the way, I put the words bad guys in quotes because these are not people who have been convicted of a crime, but only suspects. I know, I know, in the fictional ‘Ticking Timebomb’ scenario that gets thrown about we don’t have time to find out or confirm if they are guilty, just PLENTY of time to waterboard them time after time after time and get no good information to act on.)
You are right, I am a ‘true believer’…in facts.
If you believe that torturing those we capture keeps the other people we have failed to capture from carrying out dastardly deeds, then I think we’ll forever be chasing our own tails (so to speak). There are some underlying truths behind the phrase ‘winning hearts and minds’ of people in those foreign lands you think our president bows to.
If we can convince those of our enemies who remain free — who far outnumber those we could ever capture or kill — that we are not merely a nation of reactionary war mongers who can be led into military reactions with every heinous provocation (which is EXACTLY what the worst of our enemies want) then maybe we can start to make the words and pronouncements of those who would lead legions against us sound very hollow. Then we won’t show them our worst face which only makes their followers believe the lies about us more and more. Let’s have the courage to react with thought, our wits and resolve at the next attack. Because launching bombs and torturing people hasn’t quite gotten us out of this situation yet, has it?
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 6:21 am
Brian:
You have facts and choose not to believe them. It has been widely reported that we got life saving intelligence through waterboarding. This last guy was only convicted of one count out of the 285 because the judge prevented the prosecution witness from reporting the intelligence because the judge said that it was through coercion that they got the evidence, not that the evidence was wrong but just tainted because it was obtained under duress.
We are much better off and safer because of our actions. Are we 100% safe, no. We have terrorists bent on killing us and killing themselves to do it. We have done major damage to Al Quida and their management.
It is not rhetoric but court proven evidence and yet you are so blind in your hatred for Bush you refuse to accept it. I can’t help that.
I have proven over and over that you can’t win bullies and terrorists over with turning the other cheek. There is no known therapy to reach bullies because I am in that profession.
Believe what you want because you can’t be reasoned with.
Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 9:55 am
Well, as we get farther and farther from Ian’s point – which I notice you don’t seem to have a lot to argue with there — I think you seem to find things to allege that either I haven’t put into evidence or you ignore completely:
*Where do I say I have ‘hatred’ for anyone? Is it the language of your beliefs that disagreeing with someone or an administration means one must ‘hate’ them? And, don’t limit my disgust to just Bush — I don’t favor ANY administration or politician that supports torture, regardless of political leanings.
*I haven’t seen you present any ‘proof’ of your assertion that there are no other ways to change someone’s mind and heart other than torture. Saying it over and over again does not equal proof. There are other techniques (just ask the CIA and FBI as they have plenty, more effective ones) that are not illegal. Waterboarding IS illegal. Plus, the demonstrations you have seen that lead you to think that “it just scares them” are not well informed.
(http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/03/09/waterboarding_for_dummies)
*Apparently it’s just fine with you that illegal methods (not just in our country but all over the world) are fine to use even if it means it won’t hold up in court and make for longer, harsher sentences when people are captured. I guess you would rather focus on the short game than the long one. That’s entirely up to you. Technicalities matter in a system of justice, whether you are of the right or the left. I can’t understand why people like you would seem to rather water down (no pun intended) the US Justice system to make it allow for illegal actions. Is that the American way?? Or do you believe the American way isn’t strong enough to rely on and we’d all do better to go the terrorists’ way of justice?
*I need more clarification on ‘court proven methods’. What does that mean? What case(s) are you referring to? What did this mysterious court prove? Seriously, please shoot us some links to where you read about this, it would be news to a lot of us.
I believe a lot of what you have heard or think is fact are, indeed, bias sketches about facts. Check out this article from Glenn Greenwald that discusses what has been said by some journalists and ‘entertainers’ like Bill O’Reilly about what waterboarding got us, and how they don’t square with the released reports from American agencies.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/04/28/ross
Is Salon too left leaning for you? Try Newsweek then:
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/08/24/did-waterboarding-actually-work.html
Lastly, if all of that really seems just too much to spend time reading about, I ask you to PLEASE read the following link:
http://waterboarding.org/success_story
This is where so many people who believe we saved lives by waterboarding KSM get confused about reality vs fiction. The ‘evidence’ we got from KSM was already known and had been acted upon.
Court proven? Prove it.
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 10:54 am
Hey Brian:
I read the links for waterboarding for dummies. I noted that there were no deaths involved. There were protections to make sure of that like the oxymeter and that the methods were strictly regulated by how much water could be used and for how long. It was a propaganda piece but at least it was balanced by explaining the protection methods involved for the prisoners.
Again, there was no damage illustrated by the piece or physical harm demonstrated. Was it pleasant for them to go through, no. You should read what kind of interrogation techniques were used on our guys over the years.
As to the link of the 9/11 survivors, surely you don’t purport that this site represents all victims of 9/11. As nearly as I can tell, it represents a small minority of the victims and their families.
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Here is your link and I am glad that at least you are not a Bush hater.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/18/nyregion/18ghailani.html?_r=1
From the liberal paper of record no less.
Blessings
John Wilder
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 4:41 pm
John,
Thank you for speaking up. Sadly, many Christians do not see the need to fight or war in the natural or spiritual and take a humanitarian approach rather than a Biblical one.
God’s command to Saul was to kill all the Agag the Amalekite King, but Saul disobeyed. His refusal put the Jews in danger years later under the hand of Haman the Agagite.
NHEBME: Matthew 11:12. And from the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
Also, God describes himself as LORD of Hosts; those are warriors.
God is God and we are not. Every time He commanded war and the killing of even innocents, He had reason. Although the reason was not always apparent to made known to us.
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 11:22 pm
This comment is directed at you, Kathleen, and at the “all-knowing Sir Dr. J. Wilder”:
[It's gunna be a long list of things so bear with me...]
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
Let us examine each of these shall we?
I don’t know about you, but if I was being waterboarded, you can bet your ass I’d be pretty “poor in spirit”. I’m also pretty sure that families on both sides of this “War on Terror” are “mourning” for their lost ones. To be “meek”, is to be humble, and our country is pretty far from being even remotely humble. If you’re “thirsting for righteousness”, the Bible is a good place to start but you better read it through the lens of Scripture and not through the filter of bias. “Blessed are the merciful”, is there even anything to add to help you get a better grasp? As far as politics is concerned, neither the left nor right nor middle are “pure in heart”. Just like was previously mentioned about the merciful, I shouldn’t have to define what a “peacemaker” is (and no, it ain’t a shotgun). As for the last one, I’m not entirely sure it could be applied here, however, if anyone wishes to persecute someone who is trying to be Christ-like (in which doing so makes them “antipatriotic”) then I suppose it counts to a lesser degree.
————————————–
Oh yea, I am not done yet.
———–
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. . . If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even the pagans do that? Be perfect therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
I shouldn’t really have to explain any of this to you, it’s all there plain and easy to comprehend. I suppose the only thing to really add to that quote is to suggest you replace “tax collector” and “pagan” with something like “liberal” or “atheist”.
——————————-
I’m tired so I’m going to wrap this up.
[not like anyone's going to bother to read any of this]
“Our Father which art in heaven,
hallowed be Thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
On Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and *forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,*
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory for ever and ever.
Amen.”
Hey, and just so you know, I have my own problems with hypocrisy, so don’t think you’re the only one getting criticized here!
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 11:35 pm
Kathleen- If China attacks the U.S. preemptively some day, are you going to defend China with the same three points? Saul wasn’t an American, after all…
Friday, November 26, 2010 at 11:42 am
Ian, forgive me for answering your question with a question. What will you do if Christianity is declared “subversive” and they take away your church, your Bible and your family?
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 11:30 am
True Christianity is subversive. Every time. This “War=Good” version of Christianity plays along with – and enables – the powers of the air. That is anti-Christian, to be honest.
It’s very likely that the people who advocate torture now will be the same ones to torture those who try to follow Jesus in deed and action. Not just in detached ‘theological’ disputes.
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 3:46 pm
John, thank you for the link. I am well aware of that case and how the right seems to think that 20 years to life is close to ‘walking free’ (per Fox News). Do you really think they will ever find him ready for parole?
But it also supports my point and works against yours. You mentioned that it’s “court proven evidence” that torture works. This case is specifically shows how torture IS NOT acceptable. The reason he wasn’t convicted on more charges was that the evidence had been collected through torture. Had they used other means available to them (and I implore you to seek out the other methods of the CIA and FBI that don’t include torture — there are many) they would have ensured that the evidence would stand in a court of law. Let me repeat: had they NOT used torture, this man would NEVER have a chance to see the light of day as a free man ever again.
On the other hand, you might be saying that torture does get evidence and that the courts are foolish for not allowing it. Sorry, but I will go with YEARS of precedence and the Geneva Conventions rather than a fear-based dropping of our national principles. I think our country is strong enough to not fold up our Constitution and put it in the drawer. I stand by it and the years of jurisprudence that say “we will not be turned into our enemies.” Do you?
The problem with the validity of your argument is that torture doesn’t get good information by and large. (See some of the articles I sent earlier.) It only serves to embolden free enemies and lower our values and standards. Is that what you want for America?
Don’t you think if torture worked local police departments would use it? Wouldn’t the FBI be torturing people during domestic investigations? I know that Mexico likes to use it on suspected drug lords…that’s stopping them cold, right? Do you want to be Mexico in this equation??
Your abdication of American principles is disturbing, John.
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 4:54 pm
“Your abdication of American principles is disturbing, John”
Brian -
Your statement is a personal attack and not regarded as a valid tool for creative/critical arguments. You are discussing ideas and not the person. The person is also a brother in Christ; perhaps, you should stick to facts only.
Galatians 5:15 (New International Version, ©2010) If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Kathleen,
What that is is a conclusion based on statements made by John. Every sentence with the word ‘you’ should not and can not be taken as a personal attack, I am certain, but an understanding of, and placement in context of, previous statements.
You or John may not agree with that conclusion, but your statement doesn’t address the aforementioned discussion of said facts and opinions.
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 7:55 pm
By the way, Kathleen, what do you think of what Ian wrote?
Wednesday, November 24, 2010 at 6:16 am
Well we have a disagreement on what constitutes torture. We train our military through waterboarding and how to resist. There is no real damage done to the individual through waterboarding. We are not administering electric shocks or beating them or breaking limbs or fingers. I was trained in tear gas by going through the gas chamber in training. It was indeed torture by your definition but did no real damage, but made me miserable as hell for a while.
We dealt with hardened criminals bent on killing as many Americans as possible. I suggest that you send an open letter to the survivors and family members of the 9/11 attack on us and get their take on your rhetoric.
John Wilder
Wednesday, November 24, 2010 at 9:30 am
John your disagreement is with federal law, U.S. anti-torture treaties and international law that we co-authored. We prosecuted the Japanese for waterboarding our guys during WWII, remember? You are taking the Khmer Rouge and Spanish Inquisition position in this debate, and then adding that such a position is American and actually consistent with Christian principles? Think about that, I beg you.
Please watch this, and stay to the end for Hitchen’s recap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7u-Wk1aU-E
Hitchens, a former waterboarding supporter, knew he was being waterboarded (meaning that he was safe from death which the terrorist suspects did not understand) and still said it was absolutely torture. Note at the end where Hitchens says he has lasting trauma from the event. Here’s more in regards to your “no lasting damage” claim: http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=does-waterboarding-have-long-term-p-2009-05-01
Plenty of things do not produce lasting damage and are still illegal and more importantly contrary to the Christian faith. I hope “Well if it doesn’t produce lasting damage…” is not your measuring stick for what is Just and Good. A person cannot threaten someone at gunpoint or hold a machete to their throat for hours while threatening their life. If they do, the “I didn’t do any lasting damage” argument will win them a trip to prison.
Waterboarding is torture and torture exists not just to punish but especially to force the kind of confession that the torturer wants. This has been understood for centuries. That’s why evidence gained by torture is thrown out in court- it’s not a new development. Surely you can see the distinction between military volunteering to be subjected to harsh resistance training vs. (innocent until proven guilty) suspects being subjected to forced drowning up to 183 times in order to manufacture a link between Saddam and al qaeda? I know you’re not going to like seeing that so I’ll just save you a response and give you that link now. It’s from a Senate report, FYI: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/04/22/benjamin/index.html
Wednesday, November 24, 2010 at 10:33 am
John, I have a little to add to what Ian has said and the opportunities (links) he has provided for you to learn more about why your position is so far off base from reality. I hope you take the time to read those links and not just continue to tow the talking points that have been logically debunked multiple times.
The ‘disagreement’ on the definition of torture is a red herring I won’t chase. Someone can stand in the middle of a city and swear that gravity doesn’t exist, but that doesn’t mean the existence gravity is debatable or unsettled science at this point in history. Nor is the subject of what constitutes torture still a question — again, see Ian’s supplied links in the original text of this post.
And I never once defined torture for you myself, so I don’t know how you can state that ‘according to (my) definition of torture’ that you being gassed during training is torture; it’s clearly not, and Ian pointed out why it isn’t very well.
You are repeating false, unsupported claims over and over at this point so I can only assume you are not interesting in reading the links and discussing how you might disagree with the information therein. (For example, this ‘there is no REAL damage done through waterboarding’ comment is patently false once you read the information I linked yesterday.) It’s difficult to respond to purely emotional arguments that contain dubious and unsupported claims.
Lastly, it’s interesting that you say I should see what the 9/11 families think. Do you realize that they don’t all agree with your position? That even in the face of dealing with the deaths of their family members, they still are able to think beyond the barbarous conclusions that you support? If anyone should seemingly be for blind revenge it should be every one of them…but it’s not the case.
You mentioned the 9/11 families so I assume you are aware of and recognize the existence of ‘September Eleventh Families for a Peaceful Tomorrow’. Here is their site:
http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/
Among other things they state, here is the one I most embrace:
“The overarching consideration is that these self-confessed, accused detainees must be tried under well-tested and fair laws recognized by the world. Our American sensibility for justice and fairness must be demonstrated openly to our allies and our enemies. We must stand tall in rebuking those who accuse us of witch hunts. The American justice system works without resorting to newly-minted courts whose shaky underlying justification is scorned by most of the world as self-serving.”
Do you see how much their view is in line with your faith? The beauty of laws is that they don’t simply spring forth from emotional reactions to horrific life events. They are soberly arrived at and diffuse emotional outbursts that would be passed off as solutions. If the law was fluid enough to simply be newly applied in response to every new affront to our sensibilities, we’d still be stoning people in the town square and living in caves.
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 10:11 am
Hey Brian
American citizens are protected from such acts. Our enemy combatants are not and are bent on destroying us. Once again, I am not for torture, but enhanced interrogation techniques where no one is actually hurt such as in waterboarding, I stand by. I guess that we shall just have to agree to disagree. Again I suggest that you take your rhetoric to the familes of 9/11 victims and see how they feel about waterboarding. I don’t think that your ideas would be tolerated by them.
Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder
Sunday, November 28, 2010 at 5:58 pm
The idea that not EVERY 9/11 family is exactly the same is the point I was making, John. Your initial comment that I should take this to the 9/11 families was meant to imply that I would be shouted down by them as one voice — that’s a flawed expectation, John, and that’s what I was illustrating by that link.
Plus, even if they did shout me down in a unanimous voice, it wouldn’t make them right about torture.
I am afraid my points are not being understood.
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 9:30 pm
Kathleen–
“God is God and we are not. Every time He commanded war and the killing of even innocents, He had reason. Although the reason was not always apparent to made known to us.”
When did God commision the US to wage war? What has given you the personal knowledge that that is His will? What makes you (possibly) believe that Bush or Cheney had that knowledge?
I believe in Christ Jesus and I cannot reconcile my Lord and the right to torture another human being. Period.
Please share your thoughts with me…
Friday, November 26, 2010 at 11:35 am
I think you are asking the wrong person those questions.
Any answer would be my own justification of my thoughts. If you were to ask God Himself, then He would tell you exactly what you need to know.
I am sure that He is ready and waiting to answer your questions.
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 11:40 pm
Kinda makes me want to read up on St. Francis of Assisi a little more. He could be considered one of the greatest Christian peacemakers during the time of the Crusades.
I’d take a gander as to what his and Jesus’ view on torture would be.
“Whatever you do to the least of these, you have done to me.”
Have fun waterboarding Jesus!
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 10:13 am
You should read what Jesus said about anyone who harms a child: It would be better for them to have millstone hung around their neck and be cast into the sea.
Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 10:20 am
98,000- 108,000 Iraqi civilian deaths from violence
Over 2,000,000 Iraqis displaced (driven by necessity into neighboring countries)
So, should the US then have a large millstone attached to its neck, Mr. Wilder?
Monday, November 29, 2010 at 7:07 am
Disgusting. Quite the vulgar display of inaccuracy. You have proof showing all these deaths are in relation to the US’s actions?
And not civil fighting and suicide bombings…..?
Simple numbers dont always show the truth.
Wednesday, December 1, 2010 at 12:28 pm
What’s disgusting, Cornelson? The actual deaths or the fact that we brought them up? 100,000 Iraqis die from violence directly correlated to the American invasion and disruption therein, and you act like I’m to blame for making you come to grips with reality.
“Oh my stars!”
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 at 11:57 pm
“Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat.
I was thirsty, and you gave me nothing to drink.
I was a stranger, and you did not invite me in.
I needed clothes, and you did not clothe me.
I was sick and in prison, and you did not look after me.
I tell you the truth, whatever you did to the least of these, you did to me.”
Wednesday, November 24, 2010 at 1:07 pm
I am convinced that John Wilder is a troll,
and a successful one at that.
On topic: it was a nice article, I love the argument, I love the logic (or lack thereof) of the opposing views, and I love how everyone is lovingly conversing about unloving behavior.
Pingback: The Horrific Abuses of the War on Terror, and Why The American Christian Church Doesn’t Care (via The Broken Telegraph) « Kevin Stewart
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 10:29 am
Hey Jason:
Are you saying that the US was responsible for those deaths? We had all kinds of Iraqi deaths under Saddam Hussein who gassed his own people.
We deposed a dictator and the Iraqis are much better for it. He was a Hitler wanna be. Are you saying that we should have not fought against Germany?
Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 11:14 am
Yes. The US is directly responsible for those deaths. And for the displacements. And for many, many more deaths that are not considered ‘violent’ but that were caused by lack of resources – which the US is directly responsible for. (And which, I would argue, ARE violent.)
Saddam was a madman. He killed many of his own people. He caused genocide. But there are ways of ending that and bringing such people to justice (International Justice Tribunals, for instance. Complete international cooperation). We didn’t use such methods. We took over the country and put many others at high risk for death, injury, displacement.
THAT’s what we’re responsible for.
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 11:41 am
Well we tried that the rest of the world would not go along. We had numerous paper tiger pronouncements by the UN which Saddam just laughed at.
It would seem obvious to me that you have never stood up to a bully or beat the shit out of one. As a shrink, I can tell you that there is no known therapy to deal with bullies.
The church is not subversive and loves peace, but we must also defend ourselves and the rest of the world.
Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 12:44 pm
You’re a psychologist?
people let you practice?
Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 1:24 am
“International Justice Tribunals, Complete International Cooperation….”
So you say …?
Saddam blatantly ignored/broke countless “agreements” and “regulations” that were imposed on him by not only the U.S. but also by the U.N. . Countless countries were allied with the U.S. in the war effort but evidently you are willing to minimize their influence, role and sacrifice; and lay all the blame at the feet of the U.S. . I have not represented that the US is innocent to any and all blame ……. Youve assumed that I have.
“And for many, many more deaths that are not considered ‘violent’ but that were caused by lack of resources ….”
Good friends of mine were involved in the building of schools, hospitals, water systems, power grids and the election process in Iraq. It is a disgrace to your character that you cannot see the process and progress that we assisted to create there. Im afraid your emotional rhetoric will never allow you to see that.
Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 7:25 am
Countless countries were allied with the U.S. in the war effort but evidently you are willing to minimize their influence, role and sacrifice.
UK and who? Slovakia?
from Wiki:
The media in the U.S. generally used the term “U.S.-led coalition” to describe this force, as the vast majority of the troops were from the United States. The majority of nations that deployed troops confined them to their bases due to widespread violence. Additionally, the deployment of troops and the war itself were highly unpopular in many of the countries that participated in the Multinational Force.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq
We couldn’t even convince NATO of the importance of this attack. You know why? Because they’re smarter than that. There are other ways of dealing with tyrants than killing all their people before they get the chance to.
Good friends of mine were involved in the building of schools, hospitals, water systems, power grids and the election process in Iraq.
Well, since we broke it, fixing it is the *least* we could do. And it’s nice that somebody (maybe not your friends, but the people they work for) made a profit from all that destruction. But for a long time right after we started the war, there was no longer water, power, schools or even hospitals.
As per the ‘election process,’ the results are not yet in. Are the Iraqi people better off now – finally – under these elected officials than under Saddam? Perhaps. But there are other, less perilous (and more democratic) ways of disposing of a dictator than mass murder.
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 11:12 am
Hey Ian:
I read the Scientific American report and it only backed up the fact of the possibility of damage if the process was misused or mistreated. It did not alledge THAT ACTUAL HARM came to the prisoners. The process was strictly regulated by our government, can you at least acknowledge that and all the links have failed to provide ONE single instance where actual harm came to the enemy combatants.
Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 1:50 pm
bigotry
–noun, plural -ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.
Hey Jason:
I was waiting for the personal attacks to commence. This is classic liberal mind set. Liberals are all for diversity as they narrowly define it. If you don’t fit those perameters, then the personal attacks and name calling begin. I have not put anyone’s viewpoint down here simply pointed out an alternative view and my disagreement with it. In an ideal world, we would have not have terrorists nor the need to defend against them. I am all for using humane methods for extracting info, but when you have hardoned zealots, they don’t react to such persuasion.
Every liberal I have ever entered into a political discussion with has resorted to the same tactics without fail. You owe me an apology.
Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Every liberal I have ever entered into a political discussion with has resorted to the same tactics without fail.
I can see why. You’re impossible to talk to or have a dialog with. You constantly parrot the prevailing (and thoughtless) viewpoint of rightwing bullies.
You owe victims of American aggression an apology.
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Hey Jason
I can see why. You’re impossible to talk to or have a dialog with. You constantly parrot the prevailing (and thoughtless) viewpoint of leftwing bullies.
You owe victims of Anti-American aggression an apology!
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 7:50 pm
Truth be told, I’ve had better days…
Sunday, November 28, 2010 at 11:46 am
Hey Jason:
So you are defending your put downs, just like every other liberal. You say I am impossible to talk to. You asked me to read links and be open to disutation of my views. I did that. Your links did not prove or even alledge that permanent harm came to anyone who was waterboarded much as less lost their lives.
You don’t like my view so you then resort to personal attacks. You parrot the left wing views, does that make you impossible to talk to? You attempt to negate me by verbally bullying me, the thing that you say that you detest.
I don’t like Obama’s views or his policies, but I never attack him personally nor do I attack anyone personally that I disagree with. Personal attacks are the stuff of the intellectually indadequate. I disagree that things that do no permanent harm are torture. That is my right and it is your right to disagree with it. It is not your right to use personal attacks. So either apologize, or I am out of here. You stake out the moral high ground and then jump in the gutter when challenged. Sad indeed.
Wednesday, December 1, 2010 at 12:41 pm
Oh, did I hurt the bully’s feelings?
You don’t listen to sense. You don’t follow any views that don’t correspond to your sense of American entitlement (breaking several of the Ten Commandments along the way). You somehow think that a handful of Arabs with dynamite are more of a threat than the US Military Industrial Complex, with trillions of dollars and an arsenal capable of taking out the sun.
It’s not militant Muslims who are toppling elected officials in emerging countries, selling weapons of mass destruction to dictators, and sending some poor minimum-wage earner to check the junk in my trunk all in order to keep profits going for some rich, fat-cat multi-millionaires. It’s the US government.
Sunday, November 28, 2010 at 6:07 pm
John,
I am sure you can understand that nobody likes to painted as all one thing or the other. As far as I can tell I haven’t resorted to personal attacks, so please be more accurate when dismissing liberals wholesale.
Also, I think it would be prudent for me to end my part of the discussion here. If you feel that Ian’s original post (and our subsequent discussions) was based on the premise that ‘torture is OK because nobody has been hurt from it’, then we are on totally different paths. I don’t know if you can get here from there.
People can change the language from ‘torture’ to ‘enhanced interrogations’ from here until Doomsday, but it won’t change the facts. Torture is wrong. Christianity cannot SUPPORT TORTURE and still be a viable and believable philosophy based on its own teachings.
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 6:28 pm
Rom 13:1ff
1Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 7:50 pm
So we should obey everything they tell us to do then, Lamont? Is that what that passage means?
Saturday, November 27, 2010 at 8:01 pm
“After all, we’re pretty busy. We’ve got theology to contemplate….”
Calvinism to argue over.”
“The conservative mayor of London has written a piece warning George W. Bush not to visit England on his book tour because he could face arrest as a war criminal.”
We do have theology to contemplate!
Seen Europe lately? The church’s are now Mosques! Why’s that?
Europe lost the Gospel decades ago! And now the Gospel is being lost in America!
I think the conservative Mayor of London should worry about the “goings on” in his own back yard. There are people in his country that will do more then drip water in his face!
The Gospel is the only thing that will save anyone. We had better figure out what the Gospel is before its too late!
Lastly, I didn’t see Jesus leading a movement against the atrocities of Rome!
He was busy with something else I suppose? Probably the business of the Kingdom, which isn’t of this world.
May God help us to know, and empower us to do His will on earth!
Amen.
We need a new Reformation!
Alway’s preach the Gospel! And alway’s use words!
Sunday, November 28, 2010 at 7:48 pm
@Lamont:
1. Theology don’t mean anything unless acted upon or followed through with. I can relay to you all the red letters in the New Testament, but it would have all been a waste if I failed to act on anything it says.
You can have very good theology and still be a pretty terrible Christian.
2. I don’t live in Europe, so I don’t know the goings on or its various affairs. Do you live there? Do you know everything about every European country and the current situations in all its cities?
Google only knows so much.
3. “There are people in his country that will do more then drip water in his face!”
Citation(s) please.
4. “I didn’t see Jesus leading a movement against the atrocities of Rome!”
He was too busy attending to the outcasts, whores, tax collectors, those considered to be “inferior”, the disabled, the sick, the dying, the dead, the widows, the children, the needy, etc. etc. Everyone knew that Rome was full of sin, so why would he have to waste his limited amount of time saying things everyone already knew? The Apostles bluntly or implied things against Rome, so it’s not like Rome was off the hook anyway…
5. “Probably the business of the Kingdom, which isn’t of this world.”
Wrong in so many ways. Depending on what theology you follow will determine the amount of ways in which you are wrong. I would suggest you read as many of the red letters as you can from the Gospels. Here’s a tidbit from the Lord’s prayer (its in Matthew somewhere):
“Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On Earth as it is in Heaven”
6. “May God help us to know, and empower us to do His will on earth!”
That statement just agrees with what I stated in #5
7. “We need a new Reformation!”
Okay, just as long as it does NOT turn into another Crusade.
8. “Always preach the Gospel! And always use words!”
How about we preach the Gospel and use words “only when necessary”?
(a.k.a. preach the Word through your actions and character)
P.S. Not trying to be negative, I’m just putting some ideas out there, maybe correcting a little bit.
————————————–
@John (not that you’ll even bother to read any of my statements):
Please cite where it is that Jesus says that about hurting children; it’s probably there, I’ve just never heard nor seen that quote before. Also explain to me how you have noticed the speck in these “terrorists” eyes, but have completely missed the plank in your own eye?
It would also be a good thing to know that all sins have equal wait in the eyes of the Lord; and they are all bad. There are no “7 [Especially] Deadly Sins”, but rather all sins are bad.
“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
(Romans, I think 5:8, but not sure)
Just saying, and just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I’m a “far-left wing liberal hate-mongering liberal” and it’s a good thing to understand that the “far-right wing” is not perfect either (the National Socialist Party, aka Nazi Party, was right wing). Put your faith in Christ and His kingdom and not some temporary political party.
——–
Just some comments I felt like making in the event that they’ll even be read in the first place.
Hope you all enjoyed Thanksgiving and ate lots of turkey.
Monday, November 29, 2010 at 11:33 am
Hey Anonymous:
I read your stuff. I will be glad to provide the scriptural reference when I get back from my business trip. My bible is at home. If you like, you can look up the verse for yourself by going to a reference book called The Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. This book lists every word written in the bible and all the places that it can be found. It also lists a number to the Greek and Hebrew dictionaries in the back where the word is defined. I would suggest looking up the word millstone to find the verse in the gospels.
I don’t define you as a far left liberal because you disagree with me. In principle, I agree with the others on here that you can define waterboarding as torture. You can make a legitimate case for not torturing. And you are probably a better christian than am I. I am a realist and have had extensive experience with bullies which terrorists surely are. So in spite of the rhetoric expressed on here, I am glad that they coerced the intelligence out of those criminals and I know that it saved lives. If I have to make a choice to torture someone or allow somewone else to be killed and maimed, I will vote for torture every time.
If there were some way to reason with terrorists, I would be all for it. We even offered huge cash rewards which did not motivate people to turn in the terrorists.
I would suggest to Ian and Jason to give us an alternative rather than a thou shalt not torture diatribe.
And hey Ian, my apologies, I did paint with a broad brush and you have not resorted to personal attacks. Please accept my apology.
Finally, anonymous, I would have more respect for your viewpoint if you used your name rather than anonymous.
Blessings on all here
John Wilder
Tuesday, November 30, 2010 at 11:45 pm
Hi John. You don’t owe me an apology but I appreciate the gesture.
I like the way Noam Chomsky (yes a far left guy, but he has some good points) describes child abuse: you don’t want to make it BETTER child abuse. Don’t improve the child abuse: remove the child abuse!
Same goes here. Torture not only is wrong in the extreme, but it doesn’t work. You are arguing against centuries of understanding to say otherwise (I know I said that before, but I’m liking the phrase now). It produces the intelligence that the torturer wants to get, which is no real intelligence at all (unless a government is looking to develop evidence for a reality that doesn’t exist). You create a false dichotomy to say “torture or reasoning with terrorists.” There are many third options, and some of them include subjecting suspects to the laws and standards that we always have subjected suspects to in wartime and in peace time, and using the FBI and CIA to extract intelligence through the methods that, you know, actually work and aren’t rogue regime torture tactics. Click on my torture and consequence article and read the link from the FBI interrogator for one of many lawful and effective (both essential ingredients) alternatives to torture.
You are fixated on torture when it’s just one of the many abuses I wrote about. It makes me wonder if you even read or considered what I had to say, or if you’re just using this as a forum to recite arguments invented by the GOP after 9/11. You say war on terror as if it’s a universal truth like gravity, when in reality it’s a political phrase concocted by a bunch of neocons.
The gospel is not a how-to when it comes to self preservation, it is (at least in part) a demonstration of sacrifice, surrender and radical compassion and love. That point has been made better by other people in this discussion, so I will leave it there. But I do think guys like anon MS and Jason Dye are on to something crucial for those of us who profess to follow Christ.
Still, thanks for engaging. I do mean that. This blog isn’t of much value if we’re all saying the same thing. But I also hope you’re not arguing just to argue.
ian
Wednesday, December 1, 2010 at 4:08 pm
Hey Ian:
I don’t know where to find the link about other forms of interrogation but if you shoot it to me, I will read it. Now let me say that I take anything that the mainstream media says with a grain of salt. They have posted canons of journalistic integrity but they are all VOLUNTARY and editors fl0ut them with impunity.
Let me give you some examples. I am also a free lance writer in the construction and diy genre having been an award winning contractor for a number of years. Most of the stuff in print is written by writers with no real world construction experience, Handy Magazine is such an example, all of their staff are J school grads and their magazine is riddled with errors and sometimes dangerous info. I sent a correction to the editor about a piece that they published that could get people killed. Not only did he not print a retraction or correction, he killed the article that he had bought from me but had not yet published. The Boston Globe has a handyman column written by a guy with no construction experience and he has numerous times given advice that could get people killed. I send corrections to the editors and they ignore it. I have many times sent refutations to the media over global warming stories. It is scienfitically impossible for CO2 to be a greenhouse gas because it is a heavier than air gas and sinks to the ground when released. This is why they use it in fire extinguishers and spooky hollywood ground fog. I have seen and documented so many cases of outright fraud on the media’s part. Just like the links on here where they breathlessly told of how waterboarding can be lethal and yet no one died from being waterboarded or where even injured permanently. You place way too much faith in the media my friend. I have way more examples to give but space constraints prevail.
John Wilder
Monday, November 29, 2010 at 11:44 am
Hey Lamont:
You define killing innocent victims as a speck and what we did to defend ourselves as a beam? I whole heartedly disagree with your assesment sir.
Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder
Tuesday, November 30, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Is that what the passage means Jason? What’s the real Question? I think your being disingenuous hence you can answer it yourself.
I merely brought the scripture into the fray, since we are talking about nations, evil doing, and so on. Since capital punishment i.e. the death penalty is an acceptable punishment granted to Governments by God, methinks it is something that could be brought to the table to discuss?
Tuesday, November 30, 2010 at 7:34 pm
MC1
If I said that I’d have to disagree w/me too! Where did I say this?
Thanks!
Lamont.
Monday, November 29, 2010 at 11:50 am
Typo, I meant anonymous. And by the way to everyone on here, we are in a war on terror and sadly lives are lost in wars. The only alternative is to be totally passive and the let the terrorists of the world prevail. I choose not to accept that notion. The rest of you are probably better christians than I am.
Blessings on all here
John Wilder
Tuesday, November 30, 2010 at 5:57 pm
I’ve always wondered why it was called a “War on Terror”
Terror
ter·ror
[ter-er]
–noun
1. intense, sharp, overmastering fear: to be frantic with terror.
2. an instance or cause of intense fear or anxiety; quality of causing terror: to be a terror to evildoers.
3. any period of frightful violence or bloodshed likened to the Reign of Terror in France.
4. violence or threats of violence used for intimidation or coercion; terrorism.
5. Informal . a person or thing that is especially annoying or unpleasant.
Technically, if this were a War on Terror, would not it be redundant and a little illogical to be fighting Terror with similar methods of Terror?
You don’t fight Fire with Fire do you? You use water (no pun intended).
Also, please define what a terrorist is? Logically, a terrorist is one who strikes terror in the heart of those it encounters. What about those random soldiers bashing down your door while you’re minding your own business? What about that bomber that missed its target, or hit a civilian structure due to bad intel?
(I know we’ve stopped talking about the original post about why torture is immoral, but even if the victim..I mean prisoner did give info, wouldn’t it have already been outdated by the time that info was received? We’re talking about guerrilla warfare here, they don’t just go and build a base that they plan to have last for 10+ years. Torture is also inefficient for the modern war.)
“The only alternative is to be totally passive and the let the terrorists of the world prevail.” We helped set up the United Nations and are a part of it for a reason, how can we expect other countries to listen to the UN if we ourselves don’t?
“We are in a war on terror and sadly lives are lost in wars.”
A logical argument could then go as follows:
We are in a war [on terror].
Lives are lost in wars.
It is sad when lives are lost.
Therefore, war is a sad occurrence that need not happen.
“The rest of you are probably better christians than I am.”
Wrong again.
You can neither be a good or bad christian. You either are or are not one. We all have shortcomings, to say you have more shortcomings than the rest of us is probably incorrect.
This is just a bunch of words that could be read in any number of ways. That said, it is likely that you think I am being very critical of you and lashing out, but in reality I am just making comments of suggestion and inquiry, however blunt and biased they may be.
———-
By the way, off topic.
Why do you always say:
“Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder”?
I could understand that you do it as a means of being polite (and possibly formal), but it seems almost like a signature that is appears after ALL your comments (maybe you could mix it up a bit, saying the same “blessings on you and yours” all the time seems to lose its blessedness sort of speak.) They teach kids early on how to efficiently use synonyms for this very purpose, so maybe it wouldn’t appear to bland/artificial if you did the same. You seem to be well-educated, so I’m sure you could easily come up with some clever ways of blessing a person at the end of your comments.
Also, I notice some people (on here and elsewhere) sign their name at the end of each of their posts. Now if this were a letter, I could understand (ex. Sincerely, John Doe). But this is the internet, a blog to be more specific; and blogs like this one function like a forum. The name you’ve chosen (marriagecoach1) already shows up at the top of your post, and thus removes the need to type such a signature at the end.
I was just curious, no harm/insult/negative critique intended.
Wednesday, December 1, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Hey Anonymous:
I took no offense at your comments. Let me explain. I conclude with blessings to convey a message and a feeling that I have positive feelings for the commenters. On blogs in general and on the internet we have gotten way too inuslting to people for which we disagree with. We all have the right to our own opinion and disagree, we don’t have the right to insult others for whom we disagree.
As to christian or not, you are quite correct, but there are differing levels of maturity in christianity. I had previously allowed for the fact that there could be a legitimate case that waterboarding was torture and that people can rightly speak out against torture. For me having lived with terror for most of my growing up years, I have no sympathy for prisoners who have caused this country and its citizens great harm and pain and suffering. I have no sympathy for bullies and to this day I will interject myself into a bully’s diatribe against someone.
We have hardened zealots who want to kill us and hurt us. It is a legitimate war on terror as far as I am concerned. As to the United Nations, they have become truly worthless in world affairs.
John Wilder and I sign my name becuase I choose not to hide behind a pseudonym.
Tuesday, November 30, 2010 at 9:01 pm
To: Anonymous MS
1. A false Gospel, is no Gospel at all! Theology still matters! You make my point, I agree, but you still need the gospel. Oh, and concerning bad Christians?
The only “good Christian” is/was Jesus Christ! The rest are Hell deserving sinners!
Also:
Eph 2:1 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath “before ordained” that we should walk in them.
2. Fallacious argument! I don’t need live in Europe to know what goes on there!
You haven’t seen your brain, ergo…
3. http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/uk-12-year-old-student-posts-facebook-comments-supporting-british-troops-promptly-receives-death-t/question-1338343/?link=ibaf&imgurl=http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2010/03/21/1225843/439349-muslim-protesters.jpg&q=muslim%2Bthreats%2Bto%2Bthe%2Bu.k.
Given your answer to Q. #2, no evidence would suffice. What would be the point? The decline of Christianity in the west is well documented, like it or not!
4. He didn’t need to go to Rome, Rome was ruling Jerusalem at the time. The point was, He (Jesus) was about his Fathers will, as we should be about His (Christs) will as well! I think we agree on this?
5. Funny! So Jesus was busy stopping the Romans from waterboarding those insurrectionist Jews? Or, perhaps he was leading the local state of Israels campaign to end the human rights atrocities of by those “Pesky Roman illegals” crucifiction of the locals?” I guess you’ve missed the part where Jesus told Pontius Pilot that “My Kingdom was not of this world?”
You’ve missed the point all along!
6. The Reformation was one of the greatest moves of God since the Apostles! The Gospel was recovered from the still Apostate Roman Catholic Church. The Crusades? No need to answer that. Besides, The Roman Catholic Church murdered a multitude of Christians!
8. Can you explain to me how one tells the difference between a Christian, Mormon, Jehovahs Witness, or Buddhist, who acts “Christ like?
Answer: “THE GOSPEL!” Only Christians have the Gospel! That’s why you need words too!
Thanks for keeping me on my toes MS!
Until we meet again!
Wednesday, December 1, 2010 at 10:46 am
I’m still reading your comment, but two things I’d like to point out:
1. Marriagecoach1 intended his reply to me, he even corrected himself in that regard (and I guess you must of have missed that post). Oh well, just a small mistake I guess.
2. Please remember to place your responses under the correct post; ergo, your response was directed at a different post in response to a different reply which can make understanding it a little harder given the context. Just a suggestion for when you make replies in future discussions.
Tuesday, November 30, 2010 at 12:34 pm
Thanks for this, Ian. I’m a recovering Christian fundamentalist who has spent the past year struggling to not chuck it all. No intellectual argument works anymore to convince me of the existence of God. Envisioning God as “the least of these” ironically makes the best sense to me and keeps me following (however poorly and halfheartedly) after Jesus.
You said, “I pray that the American church will wake up: from its right-wing allegiance and recitation of corrupt talking points, and from its progressive moral cowardice. Then we can come together to share radical love and seek justice for some of this generation’s forgotten ‘least of these.’”
But I wonder why we need to wait for the American church to wake up? Perhaps those who aren’t asleep could make a little more noise (like you have done with this post), or just go ahead and “share radical love and seek justice” in whatever way each of us does that best, and with the encouragement of whatever little community we can gather around us. Let’s disturb that sleeping giant a bit.
Tuesday, November 30, 2010 at 5:21 pm
I think you would be interested in reading some of the works by C.S. Lewis, Tony Campolo, and Shane Claiborne.
If I had the gift of being a good teacher, I would love to converse to you a huge number of different things, but alas I can never remember all the right quotes, or relay all the helpful knowledge I have learned off the top of my head. All I can say is that the Christian theology (is that the word for it?) and the world of Science both agree with each other to my understanding. And the concept/reasoning behind God choosing to appear to humanity in the form of humanity (aka, as Christ) to try and save His creation from themselves just makes sense to me. I’m not all that good at explaining it, but I try to throw the idea(s) out there.
As for the American church being asleep, it’s actually half-awake; in that area of half-slumber where you’re not fully aware of what’s going on, but you’re almost there. There is plenty of activity going on throughout America of a very positive, Christ-like nature, but major parts of the American Church appears to be unaware of this. Moreover, unlike what many “Christian” leaders will have you believe, the times are getting better, even if the Church is slow to get out of bed.
We just need a bigger alarm clock with fewer “Snooze” buttons…
Wednesday, December 1, 2010 at 8:57 am
Hi Anonymous – thanks for your reply. I grew up with C.S. Lewis and have also greatly enjoyed the works of Tony Campolo and Shane Claiborne.
I’d like to clarify further what I meant by my statement about belief in God. In church I was taught all the intellectual reasons why our particular theology was correct. My certainty about much of that has gone the way of the culottes and handmade Bible covers I sported then
But what keeps me identifying as a “Jesus person” is the power of the gospel Jesus preached, his stated mission to fulfill Isaiah’s prophecy and “bring good news to the poor . . . proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free” (Luke 4:18). My faith is enriched and inspired by people like Martin Luther King, Jr., Gandhi, Dorothy Day, and so many others who have lived the gospel Jesus preached (whether they “confessed him as Lord” or not).
If the church wants to be relevant or missional or whatever the hip word is these days, I suggest it start with an intent look at the life and teaching of Jesus, without skipping over or explaining away the inconvenient parts (which would be most of what Jesus said and did).
Yeah, I think disabling some snooze buttons is a good idea
Wednesday, December 1, 2010 at 12:00 am
Hey Julie. I’m a recovering Christian fundamentalist too
Being that it’s midnight and I need to go to sleep, I hope you won’t mind if I think on your comment for a bit longer before giving it a proper response. I want to, but I’m not quite ready to yet (plus my left eye is closing and my contact lenses are about to fall out).
Wednesday, December 1, 2010 at 9:00 am
Of course I don’t mind! I know that feeling with the contact lenses
No rush necessary for a reply – whenever/ifever is fine.
Wednesday, December 1, 2010 at 6:18 pm
Okay Julia (I decided to get your name right this time) I thought on your comment and reply for awhile and realize I have nothing much to add. What got me thinking about your comments is the fact that I am a fellow ex-fundamentalist, and what you’re getting at rings particularly true for me. It was encouraging to hear it expressed in a way that was immediately familiar to my thoughts.
You might like this little book called ‘Trusting God’ by Rev. Earl Palmer, including some chapters about the reality and near necessity of doubtful seasons in the believer’s journey, and these unexpected events of crisis, as demonstrated by numerous New Testament figures close to Jesus (funny how even those who knew him face to face doubted him at times). Reading it was a turning point for me.
So welcome to the site, and thank you for reading the post and speaking up. I hope to hear from you more in the future.
Friday, August 26, 2011 at 3:42 pm
Ian, you are absolutely right here. But the answer to your question why the church tolerates it is actually right there in the news. Turns out during the Bush administration self-reported “Christians” were more likely than the general population, to support torture. Romans 2:24 comes to mind…
Tuesday, August 30, 2011 at 12:49 pm
Heartbreaking. And the verse that comes to mind for you is very appropriate indeed.